Wednesday, September 5, 2007

There is a blizzard of statistics out there. It's hard to see either the forest or the trees through all the snow. Certainly, anyone can data mine for the stats that most support their view. I'd like to avoid that, to try to see some truth underlying all the information.

The true situation will emerge, and it won't matter how the real estate people try to spin it. I've said before that I don't think Public Relations will keep gravity from taking hold. But that isn't completely right. I don't think PR matters, but I do think psychology matters. So, in so far as PR is able to affect psychology it can have a --- small --- impact. But, reality has a much bigger impact.

I have a friend, Mike, who helped us move into our used bookstore. He left town a few years ago, but visits once in a while. What I like is that he is older and more experienced than I, that he is well read, and that he's willing the ARGUE WITH ME! Or rather, he can hold up his end of the argument.

So he saw the brighter side of things in Bend. I still don't agree with him, but it was interesting to see a person who's opinion I respect be able to make a case that I was being too pessimistic.

But I still think it's going to be much worse than he thinks it will be.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

I came up from the valley on Saturday to visit Bend with my family. A lot of smoke near Black Butte ranch, but it was a nice day-trip that we intend to do again this fall. Near the Old Mill we ran into acquantainces from Corvallis who were renting a house for a few days with friends from McMinnville. When we got home we talked to other friends who say how they love to visit Bend & take visiting relatives there. My sample size is only n=3, but I've never ran into anyone from the west side of the Cascades who doesn't have a VERY FAVORABLE impression of Bend. So while your house prices may go 'kerplunk' and many people will have to leave due to lost jobs, it is an attractive enough place that all those houses will ultimately get filled by somebody.

Anonymous said...

Whether you're pessimistic or optimistic probably depends on who you spend your time talking to. Outsiders are indeed often enthusiastic about Bend -- since realtors by definition talk to (or at least try to) talk to outsiders, they are going to hear all kinds of "Bend is terrific" kind of statements. If a person was to rely solely on BendBubble2 for information about Bend, however, you would think it's like living in a 3rd world hellhole and indeed the future will look extremely bleak.

Duncan McGeary said...

That is certainly the prevailing view. I suppose, as long as people can afford it.

They need credit, a good downpayment, a smaller house or the ability to swing a jumbo loan.

I thought it very revealing that experts expected a 2.5% drop in pending home sales, and instead got the biggest drop in six years. (I wish I could remember the drop; 10% 20%?) I just know it was a looooong way from 2.5%

I expect the 'experts' are going to continue to be befuddled and confounded. (Despite the evidence in front of their eyes.) They were saying that, after two and half months that the "bottom hadn't been reached."

Two and a half months? What are they drinking?

I would've expected in the very best case scenario a six month or longer drop, which would be a two or three year drop in Bend. And I expect it to be worse...

Duncan McGeary said...

By the way, I have a very FAVORABLE impression of Hawaii. But I could afford to live there.....

Duncan McGeary said...

Couldn't afford, I mean.

IHateToBurstYourBubble said...

If a person was to rely solely on BendBubble2 for information about Bend, however, you would think it's like living in a 3rd world hellhole and indeed the future will look extremely bleak.

Hey! Read this title:
Best Third World Town Ever? Bend!

I said Bend was the BEST Third World Town EVER! THE BEST!

I think Bend has been the unique, hyper-concentrated beneficiary of an event (The National Housing Bubble) that will never happen again. Look at income stats and other measures of economic activity for Cent OR, and you'll see a place overwhelmed by RE interests, and very shallow in all other sectors. There's NOTHING to support what's happened here for the long haul.

it is an attractive enough place that all those houses will ultimately get filled by somebody.

See this is the Conveyor Belt Theory of Keeping Prices High. It won't work. There are a myriad of beautiful places in the US where you can go & totally dissipate your savings. TONS of places. If you want to go straight to making minimum wage cleaning hotel rooms then Bend is the place for you. Need to make Real Money at a Real Job? Good Luck. Bend is an Economic Death Zone.

Look at Duncan's blog title. It's pretty common for business owners to be scrapping by. What do you think that means for their employees? And when they do rise above the Min Wage struggle, it's not enough to pay their people much above minimum wage. And housing is dictating that new arrivals make $75K minimum to even think about buying here.

My theory is people could give a shit about beautiful mountains, recreation and all the other wonderful things we have in abundance... when they are either working 16 hrs/day at min wage jobs, or are blowing thru their life savings at an alarming rate. That's what this place does. There are too few people like Duncan making it here, and almost NO jobs new arrivals can walk into & immediately afford to live here on.

Duncan McGeary said...

Jeff, you are giving more weight than I do to things like 'impressions' and opinions.

I give more weight to jumbo loans being difficult and expensive: NW Crossing and other west side houses being more than 417k.

Credit has tightened. Fewer people can buy, even if they WANT to.

Jobs in Bend come from construction and real estate, which is chasing its own tail.

We built too many houses. In Albany, a 1000 houses would be a bubble, since they sell 400. In Bend, 3000 to 5000 houses is a bubble, if we sell 2500.

Prices are no longer a motivator. Sure, moving to Bend with equity makes sense, but trading a house for a house, without equity just to live here?

I keep coming back to what a real estate agent said about downtown coming back because of "the beautiful old buildings and the river, not the mom and pop business."

Well, the beautiful old buildings (which are being torn down, by the way....) and the river (which is silting up, by the way) were ALWAYS there, but the mom and pop business es had to fight to make downtown work. Unfair to retroactively assume that it just would've happened.

Bend has always been attractive. But Bend has never really had the jobs. And I am skeptical of the claims of an endless supply of rich folk, and I'm dubious that retired folk are much help to the local retail.

Unknown said...

"...My sample size is only n=3, but I've never ran into anyone from the west side of the Cascades who doesn't have a VERY FAVORABLE impression of Bend..."

Definitely need to increase your sample size. Myself, my family, most of my friends, and even a percentage of my neighbors, avoid Benc, Inc., like the plague. We are mostly all Native Oregonians so I'll spare you the eye-rolls about the stupid sh*t that Californians, and other recent immigrants like to get up to, (or no, I guess I won't ;)

But anyway, I mainly remember Bend the way it was 15-20 years ago. We visited many times when it was a real city, but then I moved away to Alaska and later Puget Sound, and thus missed most of the changes that have happened there in the last 10-15 years.

What horrible changes they are....I still go backpacking in the Three Sisters, and drive around to Fort Rock, to Hole In The Ground, things like that, but I don't go near Bend. Or rather, the City That Was Formerly Known as Bend. The last time I went near (last summer) I truly was *horrified* at what a disgusting californicated yuppie scum blight it has become.

You should perhaps change the name to San Bendos, or something like that, and petition to be annexed to California. Becuase Oregon, as they say, is now about 30 minutes from Bend.

Duncan McGeary said...

Paul-doh, I think both you and I see the vitality of a town coming back to the old fashioned jobs factor.

Service and retail can chase each other around, but someone has to be generating the original capital.

Real estate has generated capital, but it is a ponzi scheme that only works if we keep bringing in new homebuyers.

Retired capital is conservative and not known for buying lots of new stuff (in fact, for the opposite -- it's why T.V. shows like Matlock which appeal to the older demographic get cancelled.)

Tourism is notoriously low-paying.

Schools and hospitals and government jobs exist everywhere there are people. No advantage there.

What's left? High tech? Home jobs?

I'm sorry, I just don't see ENOUGH of that. And I skeptical of it's long term viability to sustain itself in Bend.

So -- we end up back to 'poverty with a view.'

Duncan McGeary said...

Something I think gets missed. When people say that people 'love' Bend or want to 'live in Bend.' I don't disagree with them.

It's beside the point. If 5000 people want to move here per year, but we build for 10,000, then we have a bubble.

It doesn't matter that 5000 is time times what any other town would attract. We still overbuilt.

Duncan McGeary said...

It's the sheer mass that concerns me. If I saw a huge new subdivision being built, and I could match it in my mind with jobs created by, say, a new prison, then the subdivision would make sense to me.

Or another subdivision, matched by a new mill.

Another matched by a new plane builder.

Whatever.

Instead, I see subdivision matched by another subdivision, which is matched by another subdivision.

And then, god help us, a cute little retail center to cater to the subdivision.

The subdivisions just seem to be floating on air.

The argument seems to be that Bend is growing, therefore we must build, and building means Bend is growing. Which isn't logical, dammit!

Unknown said...

"...The argument seems to be that Bend is growing, therefore we must build, and building means Bend is growing. Which isn't logical, dammit!..."

A great man, Edward Abbey, once said "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell" It appears that Bend has become the case study in Oregon for the end-result of that ideology.

As much as I regret the 'real' people in Bend who will suffer because of it, I must say I look forward to the day when subdivision after subdivision are closed, unoccupied, boarded-up, being beaten down by the snow in winter and the sun in summer. When a large percentage of the spec & flipper homes out there have wood the beautifully greyish faded color of the old tumbledown cabin we used to camp next to out LaPine hunting-camp way, then maybe I'll visit Bend again.

We used to love using our metal detector to search for old rusted iron things in the ruins of old settler cabins that went to glory on the reality of living in desert....unfortunately, it probably wont be nearly so interesting digging up an old Hummer or riding lawn mower in the future.

But satisfying. Very satisfying.

Duncan McGeary said...

whuts,

I've been out of town recently enough to realize that not everyone envies Bend. I'm sure the poseurs sitting on the sidewalk outside of Merinda (two feet away from the smelly traffic) are certain I envy them as I drive by in my beater, but I pretty much disdain them instead.

I've got a huge reverse snobbery streak. Try to impress me with your wealth, your McMansion, your huge car, your brand names, and your gourmet food, and I will have to exact opposite reaction. (At the same time, of course, that I love gourmet food and nice clothes and luxury cars and mansions -- just don't try to impress me.)

Linda came home the other day shaking her head. She'd been cut off in traffic by a motor home the size of a house, with an enormous SUV attached. The kicker was the license plate: "BITE ME!"

Nice.

Duncan McGeary said...

Sorry to go on and on. But I just have this Suessian image of an entire subdivision filled with real estate agents, next to a subd. filled with mortgage bankers, next to a subd. filled with roofers, next to one filled with dry wallers.

Unknown said...

"...I've got a huge reverse snobbery streak. Try to impress me with your wealth, your McMansion, your huge car, your brand names, and your gourmet food, and I will have to exact opposite reaction. (At the same time, of course, that I love gourmet food and nice clothes and luxury cars and mansions -- just don't try to impress me.)..."

Agreed, me too...I'll be the first to admit I sometimes go 'over the top' with my Native Oregonian schtick. (there are a few Californians I think can become true Oregonians, in 20 or 30 years of trying... ;) Thing is, I worked in Bellevue & Redmond Washington @ Microsoft in the 90's and made quite a decent pile of money from my stock options before the market tanked. I enjoy refinement, a good wine, a nice meal, the good things in life, as much as the next guy. But I drive my old '85 beater VW bus cause it still works just fine. I live now in our old small drafty 1914-era family farmhouse, cause...its cozy and fits me just fine.

But what I saw in most of my fellow Microsofties disgusted me - the same arrogance of wealth, McMansions, gadgets and goodies of the most expensive kind possible, the keep-up-with-the-joneses gone mutantly grandiose. And no...most of them really *werent* as rich as all that. They were just in debt up to their eyeballs.

However, I was also raised rather more humbly then most of the McPeople today: grew up dirt-poor on a farm in Springfield, to which I have returned to pick up where my dad left off, and to this day I give 100x more respect to a logger, a farmer, a rancher, a minimum-wage worker, then I will *ever* give to the idle rich - the arrogant yuppie, the nouveau-riche - who have to go putting on airs.

The problem is, like in Bend, that attitude takes over not only their own lives, but also the lives of the community at large, wilderness, nature, what ever might have been beautiful old historic downtown buildings, what-have-you.

I guess its preaching to the choir here...if I can hold my nose long enough to avoid the stench of those 'bite me' RV'ers & McMansions, one of these days I'll try and get to your store and give a fellow traveller a little business... :)

Duncan McGeary said...

And, of course the irony that anyone can see, that they are destroying the very thing they came up here for.

There is the equity ratio, which is shrinking, and now I'm wondering if the lifestyle ratio is shrinking as well.

If you moved away from nasty, aggressive traffic and you run into nasty, aggressive traffic, what have you gained. I'm sure there are scenic areas almost anywhere in California within a short driving distance.